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» Cinematour Forum   » Cinema Yak   » Cinema Treasure slides coming to a Theatre Screen near you.

   
Author Topic: Cinema Treasure slides coming to a Theatre Screen near you.
Bill Gabel
Member

Posts: 288
From: New York, NY
Registered: Feb 2003


 - posted December 14, 2004 01:00 PM      Profile for Bill Gabel           Edit/Delete Post 
Coming Soon to a theatre screen near you, slides advertising the Cinema Treasure Book and site. Loew's/Cineplex Theatres and Muvico Theatres & Cinema Advertising International will soon feature slides on the book and site, during their pre-show advertising at their theatres.

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William Hooper
Member

Posts: 82
From: Mobile, AL
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted December 16, 2004 12:46 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Email William Hooper         Edit/Delete Post 
I'll honestly admit that from its earliest days, I've had little respect or affection for the Cinema Treasures site. It was started with this really plastic serious-issue veneer that just screamed promotion for an upcoming book.

The fact that most of their entries for theaters from the Saenger chain are usually wildly inaccurate paraphrases of information from my Saenger site by "Bryan Krefft" without acknowledging the source of the information ("Hey, I worked for that info, I Googled it!") sort of made them look crapulous, & then when I emailed them with corrections they didn't reply - they either took a whole entry down or left the inaccurate one up.

They also seem to post a lot of stuff from the THSA mailing list without giving them any credit for doing the work to assemble the information.

There's going to be money coming to them with that book! Pre-promoted via the website, & market researched via visitor comments & site hits!

Not to mention all the free stuff they get from submissions, you should read their terms of use at
http://cinematreasures.org/legal/

quote:
Upon submission of User Content, you grant, or where appropriate, may grant, Cinema Treasures and its affiliates the following:

A. For all non-photographic material:

• a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, modify, copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, publish, sublicense, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any such non-photographic User Content and all rights appertaining thereto both online and offline;

• the right to sublicense to third parties the unrestricted right to exercise any of the foregoing rights granted with respect to the non-photographic User Content;

B. For all photographic material:

• a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, modify, copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, publish, sublicense, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any such photographic User Content and all rights appertaining thereto as needed for (i) Cinema Treasures website and services on the World Wide Web and Internet, each as commonly understood; (ii) press, marketing and publicity purposes relating to Cinema Treasures and/or theater preservation;

• the right to sublicense to third parties the unrestricted right to exercise any of the foregoing rights granted with respect to the photographic User Content;

C. Optional rights with respect to all photographic material:

In addition to the foregoing rights you have granted Cinema Treasures, you may also grant them the following rights by clicking the 'Yes' button associated with the question “Would you like to give Cinema Treasures additional usage rights?”:

• a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, modify, copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, publish, sublicense, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any such photographic User Content and all rights appertaining thereto both online and offline for any theater preservation-related purpose;

• the right to sublicense to third parties the unrestricted right to exercise any of the foregoing rights granted with respect to the photographic User Content;

The foregoing grants shall include the right to exploit any proprietary rights in such User Content, including but not limited to rights under copyright, trademark, service mark or patent laws under any relevant jurisdiction. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing, Cinema Treasures will not compensate you for Cinema Treasures' use of such User Content. Cinema Treasures is under no obligation to post or use any User Content and may edit or remove such User Content at any time in Cinema Treasures’ sole discretion.


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Jim Rankin
(Jim passed away in December 2006)
Posts: 123
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Oct 2003


 - posted December 16, 2004 10:30 AM      Profile for Jim Rankin   Email Jim Rankin         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, it may seem that they are getting something for nothing, but this prolix legal verbiage must be seen against both the litigious nature of our society today, and the fact that not enough information is always out there to help raise the consciousness of the nation, which I believe is their basic purpose. True, some text or a photo or two may end up in some work of theirs with or without attribution, which they say they intend on giving. I believe them, and from the extensive correspondence I have had with them, especially with Ross Melnick, I discern a careing soul of gentlemanly disposition which is rare in our day and age. If they become the premiere site of reference, then it is a credit to them, since they had the energy and means to achieve what the much older Theatre Historical Society and the League of Historic American Theatres have not. My review of their book appears on this site, and I think that most unbiased readers of it will agree that it is a noteworthy contribution to the body of work on theatres, even if some of it was inspired by words contributed to their site. After all, if one is so keen not to have others use his words or photos within thier Terms, then he does not have to post there.

Let's face it: all of us say that we have 'a book in us' as about theatres or cinemas, but most of us will NEVER get around to writing it, much less seeing it published. These guys did what many of us dreamed to do, including me, but did not have what they had to complete it. Good intentions on our part are not achievement. If these fellows were inspired or informed by the posts on their site, then good for them; they had the wisdom and determination to use the insights of many lovers of theatres to create a broad on-line community that has helped many to meet and exchange insignts into our theatre/cinema heritage that might not hage otherwise come to be.

Cinema Tour is especially to be praised for its fine photo collection as well as other features that I wish were on Cinema Treasures, but in this way the two sites complement each other and fulfill the gaps that the two older organizations are not prepared to fill. Each appears to fill a good and related purpose, and each appears to be honest in that purpose. I will give credit where credit is due without suspicion of undesireable things that have not taken place.

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William Hooper
Member

Posts: 82
From: Mobile, AL
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted December 17, 2004 12:30 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Email William Hooper         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I will give credit where credit is due without suspicion of undesireable things that have not taken place.
Ahem: but what about the undesirable things that HAVE taken place - not just lifting other folks' work without permission or acknowledgment, but being so sloppy as to mangle it into incorrect information, & then not correcting THAT when they learn it's wrong?

That's not suspicion, it's fact, & I'm giving them credit for that.

quote:
True, some text or a photo or two may end up in some work of theirs with or without attribution, which they say they intend on giving.
How does it happen in the first place? Then they're going to "later" do the right thing, since in the first place it wasn't?

I must know a lot more really nice, personable people who say one thing & do something entirely in their self-interest than you do. Don't they have sales, marketing, & management folks in your neck of the woods?

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Roger Katz
Member

Posts: 339
From: Thomaston, CT
Registered: Feb 2003


 - posted December 17, 2004 04:35 AM      Profile for Roger Katz   Email Roger Katz         Edit/Delete Post 
They used a quote of mine from the Cinema Treasures website in their new book. Before they used it, though, they were considerate enough to e-mail me asking if they could have permission to use it.

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Jim Rankin
(Jim passed away in December 2006)
Posts: 123
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Oct 2003


 - posted December 17, 2004 06:28 AM      Profile for Jim Rankin   Email Jim Rankin         Edit/Delete Post 
To Bill Hooper: I think the problem Cinema Treasures faces is how one determines 'truth.' Ascertaining facts is not always as easy as it seems, since what one person swears is fact is sometimes contradicted by what another person says; that is why courts of law have Fact Finding as a principal part of their deliberations. Only when fact can be established can truth then be established. Of course, many 'facts' related on their site are from the not-always-faithful memories of the contributors, and the guys running the site would have a tough time trying to confirm each and every statement made by each contributor, in fact with nearly 9000 theatres plus many other files, the task of verification would be beyond normal human strength, if not just time. The Theatre Historical Soc. for example, takes the position that only documented facts from reputable and qualified sources are admitted to their data base and files, so that inquiries may be answered with authority beneficial to all. C-Treasures does not have that luxury unless they are willing to set up a duplicate of the Archive of THSA, obviously an impractical and unwarranted task. They at CT therefore obviously let the commentors verify or contradict one another and let the reader determine by the "perponderence of evidence" (as a civil court case can be decided) the accuracy of any statement according to the judgement of any one reader.

If you sent in comments, Bill, I am sure that they were gratefully received, but if your words somehow contradicted what was already somewhere on their site, what are they to do? Remove the contradiction automatically because you believe your data to be more correct? They can hardly do that out of respect for other ones who also post there. Can you imagine the fracas that would erupt and the disfavor they would fall into? It is aggravating when someone preceedes us with inacuracies there, but we can each still give our own '2 cents worth' and try to set the record straight, but we can hardly expect the guys at CT to have a 'crystal ball' to divine just who of their contributors is the more accurate. And even if they did have the funds to travel about the nation to visit theatres/cinemas in question, they also have their day jobs to keep.

When you say: "How does it happen in the first place" I must assume we are speaking hypothetically, since you proffer no example. If it were to happen that a quote or image appeared without proper attribution, I am sure it would be an oversight, since in any work as large as their recent book, there are going to be some errors, a couple of which I enumerated in my review. To dismiss a work because a clerk may have forgotten to include a credit line is unwarranted and unkind, therefore I am sure that you did not mean to dismiss their work out of hand.

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William Hooper
Member

Posts: 82
From: Mobile, AL
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted December 20, 2004 03:18 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Email William Hooper         Edit/Delete Post 
Jim Rankin: What are you missing here?

[QUOTE=Jim Rankin] I think the problem Cinema Treasures faces is how one determines 'truth.' Ascertaining facts is not always as easy as it seems, since what one person swears is fact is sometimes contradicted by what another person says; that is why courts of law have Fact Finding as a principal part of their deliberations. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jim Rankin]
When you say: "How does it happen in the first place" I must assume we are speaking hypothetically, since you proffer no example. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jim Rankin]If you sent in comments, Bill, I am sure that they were gratefully received, but if your words somehow contradicted what was already somewhere on their site, what are they to do? Remove the contradiction automatically because you believe your data to be more correct? [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=William Hooper]The fact that most of their entries for theaters from the Saenger chain are usually wildly inaccurate paraphrases of information from my Saenger site by "Bryan Krefft" without acknowledging the source of the information ("Hey, I worked for that info, I Googled it!") sort of made them look crapulous, & then when I emailed them with corrections they didn't reply - they either took a whole entry down or left the inaccurate one up. [/QUOTE]

They got the info from paraphrasing from the Saenger site - sloppily, creating inaccuracies, & even creating through what would seem logical deduction entire falsehoods.

Is "Bryan Krefft" pseudonymous? Who knows. He's obviously just paraphrasing from stuff he finds on net. Checking his entries, he does seem to be the intersection of all theatre historical knowledge, not just in the southeast!

Some is obvious, broader paraphrasing, some is practically cut-&-paste which gives the source away.

From the Saenger site:
"The Hamasa Shrine of Meridian, MS, contracted with the Saenger organization for a new auditorium to be designed, built, & operated by Saenger in their building, with ownership remaining with the Hamasa Shrine (an arrangement similar to the one made later with Fox for the Atlanta Fox Theatre).

Emile Weil's design includes a ballroom for Shrine functions. The theatre's decoration is a byzantine swirl of plaster fountains, a large plaster chandelier, bright colors, & lush drapes.

The Temple Theatre has remained in the posession of the Hamasa Shrine, & has remained also in continuous use. It's very original: the method of the Shrine in matters of repair & restoration has been conservative & not revisionist. Stepping into the theatre is much like stepping in back in time to 1928.

With a notable exception: the lobby's terrazzo floor, inlaid with small brass stars, swastikas, & crescents, was edited during World War II. The swastikas (simply design elements when the theatre was constructed in 1927) were removed."

From the Cinema Treasures site:
Built in 1923, the Hamasa Shrine Temple was designed by the Saenger Amusements chain's house architect, Emile Weil.

When originally planned, the fraternal organization and the Saengers worked out an arragnement where the Saengers would operate a movie house inside the auditorium of the Temple, starting in 1927, while the Shrine would own the building, and their functions would be held in a ballroom built upstairs from the auditorium.

This arrangement was similar to that between the Shriners and Fox in Atlanta not long afterwards.

Built in a blend of Byzantine and Moorish styles, the Temple was highly ornate, and dramatically decorated with bright colors, gold, several kinds of marble, intricately molded swirls of plasterwork and Middle-Eastern style mosaics. It also contained marble fountains and bronze chandeliers. The Temple was hailed as one of the finest theaters between New Orleans and Atlanta.

Its terrazzo floor in the main lobby was once inlaid with brass crescents, stars, and swastikas, when laid in the 20s, just as an abstract pattern, but the swastikas were removed during WWII.

When the Saenger's lease ended in 1972, the Shrine took over the Temple completely, and restored it conservatively and made minimal alterations. It still looks remarkably the same as it did when it opened in 1928.

One of the theater's points of pride is its superb Robert Morton organ, still played on weekends before and between screenings."

One hilarious inaccuracy made by uncaring process just to change it up a bit from being a direct quote is that the ballroom is *not* upstairs. Nice guess, but wrong. The information about the organ is from the SMGCTOS site that's a link at the bottom of the Saenger page.

All the other Saenger entries on that site are stuffed with inaccuracy from just trying to do some safe paraphrasing from my site. I'm not correcting them, they're inaccurate & oily. That's the product they're offering.

quote:
If it were to happen that a quote or image appeared without proper attribution, I am sure it would be an oversight,
How can you be sure, or would you only like it to be so? It's nice that you enjoy playing in their pool, but they filled it with the neighbors' hose.

I spoke only of their website, I won't buy their book since I knew it was coming. Notice that the website's Open Source Directory listing calls itself non-profit, but I'm sure whatever's putting out the book the book money is a 501(c)(3).

I said before, when I ran across their site & looked for Saenger theatres, I noticed the entries for the Saenger ones were just sloppy paraphrases from my site with errors due to trying to condense or introduce material to avoid being a direct quote. I'm not going to go through my sent email right now, but I believe that it was their page for either the Hattiesburg or Biloxi Saenger that was so jammed with errors that I sent an email, pointing out the inaccuracies, & added that I operate the Saenger website. Boom, a couple days later, that page was gone. No correction, no acknowledgment, no reply.

For all the meant-to-impress mission statement, the site is filled with errors from attempts at unattributable sources & no desire to acknowledge attribution. Error-filled & wilfully superficial - it's not a useful listing, since it's plain they visited the Saenger site but only listed a couple of the theatres in the chain.

I've always admired David Junchen's copyright statement in the Encyclopedia of the American Theatre Organ, that basically says anyone can use the information provided they acknowledge the source. Most people who do these types of web pages - PSTOS, Martin Hart's site, etc. want to disseminate the information. But you suddenly find that others are presenting as their own work & sometimes marketing the stuff that they weren't the ones that spent HUGE amounts of time researching, pursuing, & working on.

I sort of wish I'd had my lawyer send a nice note to the university journalism student who sold a magazine article with paragrphs lifted whole & entire from one of my pages & images from Ed Jurich's site. I found another site about early 20th century entertainment that had one page *completely* decorated & with links to local copies of pictures from my site. After a couple of emails proving that they *couldn't* have the originals, & a threat, they took the pictures down. Since then, since most of my pictures take hours to patch back up, I have as "watermarks" changed details in them & busted 2 other guys. Martin Hart battles this & has started watermarking his pictures, & I've seen the PSTOS folks pictures stolen & used without attribution.

The whole "What's yours is mine & what's mine is mine" attitude is something I've had enough of, & I'm no longer fattening frogs for snakes. It's stupid, really, all you have to do is ask, & provide acknowledgment - from anyone of us. The need for these other folks to present other folks work as their own is what tips it all off.

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